How High Achievers Stop Self-Sacrificing At Work: Creating Boundaries

Welcome And The Boundary Problem

0:21 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Workspress Anxiety. I'm Cheryl Paris. Today I am joined by Stephanie Haskar and we're talking about something that sounds simple until you actually try to do it. Boundary. We hear yeah yeah, just that boundaries all the time, but what happens when guilt, people pleasing, and other people's expectations get involved. In this conversation, we'll look at how to recognise when being dependable has quietly turned into some kind of self-sacrifice. So let's get started. Hello everyone and welcome to work stress anxiety.

1:06 Speaker 1: Cheryl Paris here, your host. I hope you're all doing well. If you are new here, I want to say welcome. You're gonna find this episode really interesting because I have an amazing guest with me. Welcome, Stephanie. How are you doing? Hi, thank you so much for having me on your show. I am doing well. Good.

EMDR And Trauma Processing

1:25 Speaker 1: Now, just uh to put everything in a bit of context, Stephanie, like myself, is an EMDR specialist. So I'm gonna ask you, Stephanie, just so that people have uh an idea of what it is, can you briefly explain what it is and more importantly why it is so powerful for stress and anxiety?

1:47 Speaker: Absolutely, and so as shared, I am trained in EMDR, and the approach to EMDR is processing trauma. And so the idea is that when we experience a traumatic situation or event, the memories associated with that are stored or trapped in a different memory network, and the ability to process or make sense of them is trapped in another memory network, and through what's referred to as like bilateral stimulation, which is either if you look up videos or things, you'll see the eye movement or butterfly hug tapping, or it can be done with auditory bilateral stimulation.

2:24 Speaker: The idea is to connect those areas of the brain and help you to process and move forward with them, and so it's such a powerful tool for um trauma, which I will often say can show up as anxiety, stress, and other issues in our lives. And so it's designed to help us process and work through trauma and work through those events that might show up as triggers or as different flashbacks or different issues connected to anxiety and stress and so on and so forth. And so, yeah, EMDR is a great intervention, it's also very it's very scripted, and so you'll get a very, very similar experience counselor to counselor, which might not be exactly the same with talk therapy.

3:12 Speaker: So I think I think I covered it all. Is there anything there that you would add on?

3:17 Speaker 1: No, but I what I would say is it's one of those things that if you're skeptical about therapy and talking about therapy, it's a great alternative um to it. And I I remember when I first experienced it, I thought this is kind of weird what we're doing, because it's not it's not like anything else that you're going to experience, but that's the beauty of it, it's not like anything else, and because it's basically working both sides of your brain simultaneously, that is why it's so it's so powerful.

3:55 Speaker 1: Would you would you agree with that?

3:57 Speaker: A hundred percent, and yeah, it it is different, and whenever I explain it to clients, um something that I often get is like, oh, am I gonna forget? And it's like you're not gonna forget the memory, but you're gonna make sense of it and be able to kind of put it to rest. So cool.

Why Boundaries Matter For Helpers

4:10 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I in my work around stress and anxiety, especially work-related stress, emotional exhaustion, is I meet so many amazing people, and when I say when I say amazing people, I genuinely do mean that they're ordinary people just getting on with their lives, and maybe something has happened to them, so like I said, they might experience uh trauma with a small T or sometimes a big T, or they've been sort of doing what worked for them five years ago, somehow is no longer working for them, and they cannot understand why.

4:52 Speaker 1: So, one of the things that I hope I do very well is help people see why it's important, even when you are a beautiful, wonderful person, helpful person who cares about not only yourself but other people, why boundaries are really really important now.

5:14 Speaker: Am I wrong in thinking that? No, not at all. I think that it's very valid, and I also think that understanding what boundaries actually mean is very important, and they can be with others, but they can also be with yourself. Um, and I think that it's become this like catchphrase now, but maybe people don't actually understand, like, okay, what does it mean if I've set a boundary or set this for myself?

5:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, because um I find that some people really struggle with it. They really struggle with the not only the idea of setting boundaries, but also the implementation of boundaries. Um I don't have I'm really fortunate. I don't have that problem anymore. In the sense, even today, I annoyed my mum because my boundaries are different to hers. I love you mum, but they are, you know, and I have found uh that I'm a lot happier within myself because I have set very not so much with myself, but boundaries with how I interact with other people.

6:21 Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, Stephanie, what do you think is the issue around why people find it so hard to not only set but keep boundaries?

6:33 Speaker: Well, I think in my opinion, I think that maintaining boundaries is way more important than setting boundaries, and I'm gonna use an example because I feel like this is helpful to explain, right? Like, if you're saying for myself, I'm gonna make sure that I get up every morning and go and work out for 30 minutes, and that's a boundary that I've kind of put for myself, right? That's an easy thing to say, that's an easy thing to set, not the easiest thing to act out when maybe a friend's asked you, hey, do you want to like come out and do something or have some wine or whatnot later on an evening?

7:06 Speaker: And you're like, oh, well, if I do this, I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow. And this is something that I've maintained to myself. This is a commitment, this is a boundary, this is something that I need to focus on. And so I think that's where it gets challenging, is when maybe it's like, oh, this seems like fun. Um, and then I think with other people, the idea of maintaining things, you might disappoint people, you might upset people, and being content with that can be a hard thing, right? And there can be repercussions, right?

7:37 Speaker: If you're like, I'm not willing to do that, it might mean that somebody doesn't approve of that, and that means that okay, maybe that relationship is severed, right? Um, and you have to decide, okay, what's worth it, what's not worth it. And so I really, as obviously I'm also a clinician and I really focus a lot with my clients on okay, how do you maintain this? If this is what you want, how are we gonna maintain this and keep this alive?

Resentment As A Warning Sign

8:05 Speaker 1: One of the things that I've noticed is that many high-functioning women don't describe themselves as people pleasers because they do they're doing everything. Do you know what I mean? They're running around, um, they may go to the gym, they're doing exercise, they're looking after their kids, they're looking after their elderly parents, they're a mean boss at work, they get you know, they get everything done on time, you know, and if people you know don't don't follow the rules, they're strict with them, and they say things like, Oh, I'm just dependable, you know, I'm just the person who gets things done.

8:43 Speaker 1: And to me, I'm always curious at what point does the pable become self-sacrificing?

8:51 Speaker: Right, I think in general it is a self-sacrifice, and and I do want to preface like I don't necessarily think it's all bad. Um, I think there is a certain element of we've pushed so far that everyone needs to have boundaries and everyone needs these lines. Um, but there is a level of like if you expect a friend to show up for you, you probably are gonna have to show up for them as well. And there's that balance between doing things for people, maintaining boundaries, um, but also recognizing that there has to be give and take in relationships.

9:22 Speaker: And one of the best things that I like to use as an indication of like, okay, I've gone too far is do I feel resentful? If I'm doing things constantly for somebody and I'm starting to build a feeling of resentment and to your example, right? If I'm like starting to resent my family or I'm starting to resent my job, maybe I'm doing too much, and I feel like that's a good indication of like okay, my people pleasing is over the top. I am not maintaining any form of self-care or boundaries, I'm just doing everything for everyone in the most capacity that I can.

9:57 Speaker 1: Now, do you think there is a moment I know there was a moment for me when it shifted, but do you think no? I'm just I'm very weird because I have spent pretty much at least the last five years, if not longer, doing a lot of journaling. So I have I have been a big baby, I have been resentful, I have been contrary, I have been vengeful in my journaling. I've journaled everything out. All I've literally gone back. What I did, I literally went back to every single year that I can remember from the time I was, I don't know, maybe six, to and you know, thought about events that happened to me that year and literally journaled out how I felt, so that's why I am very confident in how I feel about things, you know.

10:55 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I changed my mind about things all the time. But for me, it was a moment where it it was almost like we're drawing a line in the sand and no more. But do you think most most people it's like that for them?

11:10 Speaker: I love this. I think yeah, what I'm hearing you say is like a breaking point. It's like I got to a place where I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this, I'm not doing this anymore. And I think journaling is so powerful because as we're writing things out, we have to think about it, process it, and write it down. And so you are helping yourself work through things in ways that you maybe didn't recognize. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that everyone's experience is obviously different, but I do strongly believe that everyone hits that point where they're like, Okay, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore.

11:42 Speaker: Um, and what that looks like for each person is different, and I think that's kind of what I was referring to with the resentment, right? It's like you recognize, like, what am I doing? Why am I the one doing all of this? And I'm not having that reciprocation, right? I think that's that's a big piece of it. I'm I'm not feeling like they're noticing what I'm doing, yeah.

12:03 Speaker 1: And I I mean, even my my I'm laughing because even my daughter, you know, when I when she was younger, obviously she used to hear me say this all the time, but she even uses it now, and it I literally used to say, I don't care, I don't care. And those three words were very powerful for me, but I think they were very powerful for when people heard them because it sh kind of shocked them, you know. It was almost like BAM, she she's serious, you know. And when I heard my daughter do it with her kids the other day, it was like, is that what I sounded like, you know?

12:39 Speaker 1: Because if you're not used to hearing it, that could you know it it's almost like saying shut up to someone, really. Do you know what I mean? It's that powerful.

Mental Load And Burnout Reality

12:47 Speaker 1: The reason why I talk about this is because this podcast is about stress and anxiety, but in particular the kind of stress and anxiety that is induced by the situations we put ourselves in or are subject to in the workplace, and because most women now us especially us high-functioning ladies, we most of us now, especially in the first world, unless you've got loads of money, you have to work, you have to do some kind of of work, whether it's full-time or part-time. And unless you are lucky enough to employ yourself, that's not always and even when you employ yourself, it's not always possible for you to choose the kind of work that you do, you know, because you have to put bread on bread on the table.

13:39 Speaker 1: So what have your clients taught you that's not in textbooks about the emotional exhaustion that comes with reaching that point where basically you would be saying to someone, just like Cheryl did, I don't care anymore. That's it.

13:58 Speaker: Yeah, I love that you said what have your clients taught you because I've said this all the time, and I think people are like, wait, what? But I feel like as a counselor, like I learned so much from my clients and their perspectives, and yeah, so first of all, I love that. I really think the mental load is something that, like, and it is like a catchy phrase now, but I think really considering that to your point, more often than not, households look like two people working, two people coming home and taking care of the kids, and one person holding the mental load of keeping absolutely everything in check and everything together, and more often than not, that falls on the woman.

14:35 Speaker: And so we're in this place of pretty well two full-time jobs, and it's exhausting and it's a lot, and when you drop something, I think there's so much shame and blame connected to that, which is really unfair. And it's like, okay, well, you're holding and you're juggling all of these things at once, and that's not easy, and that's not something that a lot of people can do for a long time, and so I think you're right. I think they're getting to the point where it's like, I don't care, mostly because it's like I don't have the energy anymore, like I don't have it in me.

15:10 Speaker: It the way I view it is like I don't have to fight anymore. It's like I I just don't care. Like, we will have takeout pizza for dinner tonight, and sure, you can watch a movie until whatever hour because I don't care anymore.

15:21 Speaker 1: When I reach the point of burnout, I remember I was in I was actually in the office. I can understand, I can understand why people in that moment completely lose it. You know, just just literally, you know, just go from frustration through to anger to through to violence. You know, I'm not saying don't don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, I'm just saying I can see why people lose it. I just literally remember just closing my laptop, putting everything away like I normally did, saying I'm leaving.

15:57 Speaker 1: I just literally left, and I was at home for about seven months, and I literally sat on the sofa for seven months. I don't even remember washing, dressing, brushing my teeth. I mean, I was gross, truly gross for someone who normally showers at least twice a day, sometimes even three times a day, if especially from like going out in the evening. Um, for me not to not to do those things, that is just not me. And I remember it was my daughter, God bless her, who because she was just being her, she was about five or six at the time, because she was just being her, you know, asking mummy questions, you know, why is this happening?

16:41 Speaker 1: Why does that happen? Um, it kind of pulled me through, it kind of got me to the point where I was like, hang on a minute, what are you doing? Yeah, so I know that I was very much a people pleaser because I all my life I've wanted to be liked. I you know, I've always wanted uh people to look at me and think well of me, and so I understand why people do their best to accommodate everybody, but I know there is such an emotional load because of that, and one of the things I'm interested in in asking you, people look as though they're coping because they're doing everything, and when people say to them, How are you?

17:31 Speaker 1: They say, I'm fine, how are you? and it's almost like an automatic response to you know to when people ask that, and I'm just curious now what's your experience of that? Is there other ways that people continue to? I don't know, I almost see it in my head as someone pressing play in their head. Do you know what I mean? It's there's someone else there pressing the play button, and they just say they're just literally porting a script that they've been given by somebody else. Um and what's your what's your experience of that?

The “I’m Fine” Social Script

18:09 Speaker: I think it's it's a greeting. I think the way I look at it is like when people say, like, oh hey, how are you doing? Um, and you say, like, oh, I'm fine, how are you? It's it's an exchange, it's not necessarily how are you today? And I feel like to me, there's a difference. Like, and I guess the best way to put it is like, even at this podcast, this is literally how we started, right? How are you doing? Oh, fine, how are you? Um, whereas I also think of like if my close friend just called me and was like, Hey, how are you doing?

18:36 Speaker: My answer would be a lot different. And sometimes I wonder, is it do we gauge our answer based on what we think people can handle? And that might be part of it, right? It's like, okay, I'm gonna talk to this, this, and this person about this, but these are my people who I feel close with and who I will be honest and be like, yeah, you know what, today has been a shit day, it is not going well, or today has been not a great day, and so yeah, I think that's the way that I view it is like who are the people you feel like you can be real with, and who is the people where it's like this is just a casual interaction, this is not um my time to tell you my life story, so to say.

19:14 Speaker 1: And when someone says, I don't even know what I need anymore, I spent so much time looking after everyone else.

Small Steps To Care Again

19:23 Speaker 1: Where do you where do you begin the conversation?

19:27 Speaker: I think again, like depends on the context, but I as a counselor I will go back to like okay, what are the things that were helpful before? What were the things that brought you joy? What were the moments where you were like, okay, things are do are feeling good? And then as a friend, I think that people really underestimate the being there, whether that's on a phone, whether that's showing up at their house with food and just sitting there and hanging out and talking, and really, really showing up in that capacity, in my opinion, is so much more important than people realize or even give their friends credit for, right?

20:04 Speaker: It's like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna be here for you. What does that look like?

20:08 Speaker 1: Okay, and just before we go, what is what do you think is the first small shift that helps someone who knows, yeah, yeah, I've reached the point now where I don't care, reconnect with themselves.

20:25 Speaker: I think go start doing the things that used to make you care. And this is a weird thing to say, but I often say when people have hit that place of like you had shared yourself, like really not feeling well, not doing good, not able to do the things that you used to previously do. I often say, like, it sounds weird, but like fake it till you make it. Do the things that used to bring you joy. Um, go go outside, start with the basics, right? And even if it's one thing a day, you'll slowly move into a mental state that's better because if we wait to feel better, we're never gonna do it and we're never gonna feel better because we're not doing the things, right?

21:05 Speaker: Um, so sometimes it's the fake it till you make it. Go work out, get some exercise, get some sunlight. And I'm not talking a lot because when you're in that state of burnout and depression, it's like I don't have it in me. But pick one thing in five minutes a day, right? For you, maybe it's okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go and I'm gonna shower, and maybe I'm not gonna do anything, but I'm just gonna go stand in the shower and I'm gonna let the water run down me because that is step one, and that is great, a starting point, right?

21:30 Speaker: We don't need perfection, just need an attempt.

21:34 Speaker 1: Thank you, and I I'm so glad that you mentioned the P word because I have a real problem with that word. Yeah, yeah. I think it's such a made-up word, but I really want to thank you, Stephanie, for sharing your insights with us today. Thank you so much for joining me.

21:50 Speaker: Thank you so much for having me on your show, it's been a pleasure.

Takeaways And Where To Follow

21:53 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I'm taking from this conversation is that boundaries are not really about making grand gestures, they're all about what you consistently choose to maintain. You know, you'll find all of Stephanie's links in the show notes. And if you like more conversations like that, or like this I can say, make sure you follow WorkStress Anxiety at follow the podcast.com forward slash work stressanxiety. Bye for now.